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October 02, 2007

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Edd

Well argued. However:
' once conception has taken place, the embryo then possesses all the relevant characteristics of human life. It is now genetically distinct from its parents.'
I'd be wary of taking genetics as a key point. I don't think you need to be genetically distinct from another person to not be that person. In addition, one can have parts of your body genetically distinct from other parts of your own body! It's going to cause you some amount of philosophical pain when it comes to dealing with identical twins too.

'Neither do we normally consider it legitimate to end the lives of severely mentally disabled people who lack the capacity for rational thought, or severely physically disabled people who are unable to move their bodies independently.'
I'd certainly agree with that. But once someone is actually brain dead then it's a different matter, which leads me on to, or rather back to...

'It is worth noting before we proceed any further, that any argument which says 'we cannot know with precision when human life begins' is also an argument in favour of protecting the embryo from the moment of conception.'
I don't know when precision it does begin, but if I said, for example, that it began some time after the first neuron developed then I've got a position by which I can say abortions up to some point are permissible, and ones after are not.

'The burden of proof falls on those who wish to show that it is not a human life'
Fundamentally, we're still back at the same problem. Because I can define human life differently to you, I can show it is not a human life.

Sean Doherty

Thanks Edd. I am not so sure that twinning makes a difference since I do not think genetic distinctness *as such* makes one a human being. The point is, conception is the moment at which genetic distinctness from parents is established, and the point therefore at which something *new* is formed. That is, the conceptus cannot be said to belong to its parents in the same was as egg and sperm do.

Practically speaking you're right that we're back at the same problem: defining human life differently. But philosophically, the question is, on what *basis* does someone say that it begins at the development of the first neuron? Why should that be morally meaningful? Before the development of neurons, the embryo is still a) human and b) alive.

JohnS

Not to put words into his mouth (I don't know Edd), but my understanding of his argument is that point a) in your (Sean's) comment is where things diverge: he's using as an *example* -- not necessarily a position he believes in, just a possible starting point -- a definition of "human" so as to be roughly synonymous with "a creature with at least one human neuron."

Of course all this language -- "creature"?!? -- gets awfully tortured in the attempt to say things without using emotionally freighted words!

Thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- post, Sean.

A Badger

Although this disccusion so far is about whether abortion is right or wrong, I think I'd be correct in thinking that Sean therefore expects the law to change to make it illegal. Is that what laws are really for? Or are they to protect the population (I'm aware 'population' may include embryos, and thats something to argue about). Abortion legislation in the UK was brought in principally to stop abortion being the number one cause or death during pregnancy. My point (which is sketchy and needs work) is that isn't it the church's job to persuade people that they shouldn't be aborting babies, not trying to persuade the government that it should be illegal? Do laws exist to lay down what is right and what is wrong?

I agree with Sean

Simon

Hi

I like the reasoning, and am feeling drawn towards your line of thought.

I have a feeling that there might be a logical flaw with reasoning that extrapolates a category and finds a single example to disregard a categorisation, or perhaps it is the idea of categorisation that is flawed?

Perhaps (and I am thinking out loud) what your reasoning is doing is taking a feature of an embryo (e.g. lack of rational thought) and then placing the embryo on the same footing as a human on the basis of a lack of a human characteristic (in this case a baby and a person with a dramatic mental disability). Therefore we can categorise a human as a something that lacks a human characteristic?

What this illustrates is that there is no single category that defines what it is to be human. However there does appear to be some in built human faculty to identify another human, where we struggle with the embryo is that it fulfils none of the categories one might hope to use to justify its being a human.

Or: Cats have fur, 4 legs, pur, meow, bite simon, have claws and run along fences. In all of the above categories one can find a cat that does not do all of the above. In fact the only accurate way to classify a cat is through its genes (I think). And by that standard our cat has always been a cat, whether feotus or an evil-git-cat like Milo.

So rather than seeking the identification of a human by category you are seeking a kind of universalist definition of humanity.

I feel I am slightly drawn towards a more considered approach though more on the basis of emotion than reason.

Lisa Severine Nolland

my dear Sean
excellent
but this is just for you
can't find a way to contact Rob re Grove...
any ideas?
hope you & yours are well
love lisa (from Grove ethics)

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