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February 21, 2007

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michael jensen

My goodness, you are RIGHT.

We aren't here in the business of learning how to mop brows and hold hands.

There is NO excuse for this indifference I am afraid, and NO excuse for teaching in such away as to confirm the complete irrelevance of the Scriptures.

Custard.

Yep - agreed.

Saju

Agreed but, I might add that we are also not in the business of being rude to people. I wonder if the sensitive approach people are subscribing to is a reaction to an attitude of "I am a Christian and I have all the answers to your problems" kind of outlook with much "humility deficiency" (I came up with the phrase- I am sure you are impressed, Sean :0).

I am suspicious of Christians who claim to have "Gospel Truths" sorted out... This is not because I don't have confidence in the 'Gospel' or the very nature of 'Truth'. This is also not to mean that we as Christians shouldn't engage with the questions and pains of contemporary culture. What I am challenging is perhaps the arrogant nature of our "Biblical answers". Very often what I proclaim as a "Biblical answer" is simply my opinion- nothing more. The Gospel does confront human condition both explicitly and implicitly. But I wonder if this could be the case, minus my superciliousness.

Sean

Thanks Saju and others. I completely agree that we need to be courteous - or even more so, we are commanded to be gentle and to speak the truth IN LOVE. There is also a time to be silent.

I guess my point though is that we should not confuse our pastoral wisdom with our careful search for the truth. So we must try and work out what is true but that doesn't mean we then ram it down everyone's throats - obviously.

I do think that there are biblical-ethical 'gospel truths' which are basically ignored in the church and which we need to recover for the sake of those who cannot speak up for themselves - e.g. abortion, IVF etc are a justice issue analagous to campaigning for social justice.

Jonathan Mobey

Right on, Sean.
The stakes are so high that we simply cannot disengage.

Tiffer

It's interesting how much Christians are biased on moral issues as a result of what has become acceptable within Christian culture. Until quite recently independant Christian bookshops rarely accepted credit cards, because of course debt is bad and evil and wrong. Now that it has been observed Christians can have credit cards and not be in debt (the monthly full direct debit for example which used to be fairly rare) now credit cards are fine - although often Christians do get into debt and we just don't ask.

Mortgages are another example. The same evangelicals who cite biblical references against borrowing or being in debt don't seem to even notice mortgages. Why? Because most Christians now take them out, regardless of their views on debt.

On Dawkins program the Root of all Evil he interviewed an American pastor who defended another pastor who shot a doctor to prevent him from carrying out abortion surgery. Said American pastor claimed that it wasn't murder - it was defense - who wouldn't defend innocent lives from being murdered, whether it was legal or not? I think there are some holes in this argument, and whether a Christian should ever kill even in defense is a big question, but it struck me as an important question - if we really believe abortion is murder - what are we doing about it? And it is alarming the number of people who are pro life but who don't realise the consequences of IVF (unless they are planning to bear all the fertilised eggs)

Doug

Sean (found this via facebook..), of course we should discuss these things. Surely the point is not the complicatedness of the issues (and they are complicated), but that they are complicated because the life of the person concerned is impacted hugely by the results of these decisons.

Having a debate about the ethics of abortion/IVF/random hotbutton issue is very different from talking to a 15 year old girl who's been knocked up and is terrified her parents wll find out.

Also to get all relativist here, you may be wrong. If you give someone in a vulnerable situation explicit advice (and I do think even stating an opinion can count as doing this in some contexts - especially if you are an authority figure), you are in some way responsible for the result. You may be right, you may be wrong, but sometimes an approach that involves supporting people while they find the strength to make their own decisions is the wisest choice.

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